Accident in France
Tigouille - 2015/09/24 13:17:25 UTC
Limoges
Good pilots are not all good acro pilots (I don't know about Thibault), but it was a windy day. I am not qualified to judge how that would affect acro perf and possibilities. Not sure throwing the chute is the basic issue here (as it is for Wolfi).
David-CH - 2015/09/24 14:44:15 UTC
Lausanne
You're right, Sunday was a windy and turbulent day with "bise" wind. All PG flights were cancelled and almost all HG pilots decided not to fly this day. Only two pilots took off and Thibault was one of them. I was quite upset seeing them in flight in those conditions, and of course even more after seeing this terrible accident happen ! Thibault was over the valley when his wing tumbled, where the wind and turbulences should be lighter... It's hard to say if that was the main cause of his accident but it's of course one of them.
Aaron Swepston - 2015/09/24 16:03:15 UTC
Aerobatics in a hang glider are not approved or condoned by HG manufacturers because the risk involved is substantially higher than normal flying. Flying a hang glider within the placarded limits is bad enough; flinging them around aerobatically is something altogether different.
The problem with aerobatics is not when they are done well and done properly, because properly executed aerobatics are good, fun, sweet, and not damaging to our wings. However, it is when they are not done properly that is the most sinister problem. The sudden realization that this shit really is dangerous is a realization that nobody should ever experience. Knowledge and experience is priceless and truly a matter of life and death. The hardest part about teaching or coaching aerobatics is instilling the idea that there is little room for mistakes, and so it is extremely important to strive for perfection in all efforts. Things really can go from just fine, to really, really bad in the blink of an eye. Done well, learned well, practiced well, it can be great fun and relatively safe, but the sudden consequences of a mistake can be horrendous.
Not everyone learns with that full understanding of the relationship between accuracy and consequence.
A blown maneuver can kill you. Even if you have multiple reserve chutes. Preparing for the worst case scenario with backup after backup is no substitute for absolute preparation and a dedication to prevent that worse case scenario. The best cure is prevention. It seems simple and stupid, but the best way to avoid getting hurt or killed doing aero, if you insist on doing aero, is to not screw up. Don't do it. Don't screw up, because the results can be really bad. And if you're doing aero and don't really know how to avoid screwing up, then perhaps it would be wise to back off and get some outside help on how to know such things.
Aaron Swepston - 2015/09/24 16:34:57 UTCVery good! I was hoping someone would make that point. While it is good to understand proper deployment practice, the bigger issue here is avoiding the necessity to throw that reserve. This was an aerobatic incident, a voluntary and pilot induced event. It did not "happen" to him because of outside influences, he tossed his glider into a vertical stall and tumbled out of the failed maneuver and broke up. Sure, let's not ignore proper reserve criteria, but let's also not ignore the cause of the accident. He would never have needed one, two, or three reserves had he not tail slid his glider. Let's not excuse sloppy flying technique. Let's not excuse poor judgment. Let's not excuse or ignore the creeping complacency that is infecting our sport more now than ever in recent history.Tigouille - 2015/09/24 13:17:25 UTC
Good pilots are not all good acro pilots...
The recent fatality report demonstrates a trend, and ignoring that trend, or simply being blind to it, is our biggest problem right now. Not the number of reserves we have. Not how long we wait to toss it. Do the research, examine the reports objectively. Look around at all of our flying sites and compare one another's flying skills with the Pilot Proficiency System's requirements. The answers are there right in front of us, but a lot of us are simply too habituated to see.
Approved means certified.Aaron Swepston - 2015/09/24 16:03:15 UTC
Aerobatics in a hang glider are not approved or condoned by HG manufacturers because the risk involved is substantially higher than normal flying.
Like THIS:Flying a hang glider within the placarded limits is bad enough; flinging them around aerobatically is something altogether different.
http://forum.hanggliding.org/download/file.php?id=18967
maybe? Are hang gliders placarded to be stood on their tails by a "pilot" who goes upright and takes his hands off the control bar and places them way the fuck up on the downtubes a foot or two off the deck?
How 'bout?:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/14097626583_03972773c6_o.png
Does that asshole have the speed range for which that glider was certified?
How 'bout imperfectly timed landing flares? Any fatalities ever associated with any of those?The problem with aerobatics is not when they are done well and done properly, because properly executed aerobatics are good, fun, sweet, and not damaging to our wings. However, it is when they are not done properly that is the most sinister problem. The sudden realization that this shit really is dangerous is a realization that nobody should ever experience. Knowledge and experience is priceless and truly a matter of life and death. The hardest part about teaching or coaching aerobatics is instilling the idea that there is little room for mistakes, and so it is extremely important to strive for perfection in all efforts. Things really can go from just fine, to really, really bad in the blink of an eye. Done well, learned well, practiced well, it can be great fun and relatively safe, but the sudden consequences of a mistake can be horrendous.
Yeah, I think I'd said something like that a couple days ago. And, go figure, I'm not even a beyond ninety aero guy.Not everyone learns with that full understanding of the relationship between accuracy and consequence.
A blown maneuver can kill you. Even if you have multiple reserve chutes. Preparing for the worst case scenario with backup after backup is no substitute for absolute preparation and a dedication to prevent that worse case scenario. The best cure is prevention. It seems simple and stupid, but the best way to avoid getting hurt or killed doing aero, if you insist on doing aero, is to not screw up.
Maybe Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney can run another twenty page Davis Show thread for us - do for aero what he did for foot landings and standard aerotow weak links.Don't do it. Don't screw up, because the results can be really bad. And if you're doing aero and don't really know how to avoid screwing up, then perhaps it would be wise to back off and get some outside help on how to know such things.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpgAaron Swepston - 2015/09/24 16:34:57 UTC
Sure, let's not ignore proper reserve criteria, but let's also not ignore the cause of the accident. He would never have needed one, two, or three reserves had he not tail slid his glider.
And...Let's not excuse sloppy flying technique. Let's not excuse poor judgment. Let's not excuse or ignore the creeping complacency that is infecting our sport more now than ever in recent history.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14312
Tow Park accidents
...who's responsible for that?Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/11/12 14:49:58 UTC
One of the stated goals of this site is to promote HG. MOST views on this site are NOT from members but from visitors, they have no ignore button.
Having Tad run around every day giving the impression that there is a massive weekly slaughter of pilots at tow parks due to their horribly dangerous devices surely doesnt promote HG. Especially when the safety records are quite excellent.
Like Jim said, theyve gone a decade with no fatalities at their tow park. Pretty damn good I say.
Yet listening to Tad, you would think guys were dying all over the place
He's been nothing but misleading and negative and ignored multiple warnings from me. So He's GONE
What recent fatality report? All we have is a mainstream media report and a few posts. No internal investigation, wing camera video, track log.The recent fatality report demonstrates a trend...
We have ten fatal crashes with eleven kills so far this year and little more than total shit in the way of reports.
As opposed to WHEN?...and ignoring that trend, or simply being blind to it, is our biggest problem right now.
Yeah, read the Kelly Harrison / Arys Moorhead - or whatever you can get of it through the privileged information decimators.Not the number of reserves we have. Not how long we wait to toss it. Do the research, examine the reports objectively.
- Seeing as how Mark G. Forbes has openly stated that u$hPa will NEVER allow an actual fix to an actual problem into its SOPs, just how much faith should we have in the legitimacy of the Pilot Proficiency System's requirements?Look around at all of our flying sites and compare one another's flying skills with the Pilot Proficiency System's requirements.
- How 'bout this one:
What percentage of flyers are making the slightest pretense of compliance? And just how much help have we gotten from you in pushing it?With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
Habituated? All of the most effective, obvious, easiest, biggest bang for the buck fixes and their advocates are under nonstop attack coordinated from the top. And we have better things to worry about than guys blowing aerobatics in smooth air and/or having them blown in turbulence.The answers are there right in front of us, but a lot of us are simply too habituated to see.
If I have to feel for people I'm gonna prioritize the ones who were victims of their instructors.Aaron Swepston - 2015/09/25 14:33:14 UTC
This kind of situation is always so tragic and sad because these specific kinds of events are preventable, or avoidable.
So where are ya on Bertrand Delacroix? He spun in on an aircraft that appeared to be for recreational purposes having done nothing wrong a bit over three months ago and we don't have one word - even an acknowledgement that anything happened - from the motherfuckers who launched him on the other side of the road.I'm also struck by the pilot's age; only thirty years old. That's not very old at all, he was just a kid. I've been looping longer than he was on this earth, and it always hits me hardest when something like this happens unnecessarily.
