control tubes

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.kitestrings.org/post8489.html#p8489

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WDu5vX5M84

[Steve Davy]

http://ozreport.com/1277902888
Packsaddle accident report

Shane Nestle - 2010/06/26

The problem began when he initiated his turn. Being that John was still very new to flying in the prone position, I believe that he was likely not shifting his weight, but simply turning his body in the direction he wanted to turn.

[Steve Davy]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=377143#377143
How we judge our flying risk.

Robert kesselring - 2015/10/15 16:24:38 UTC

I actually find that I have more weight shift authority when upright. When upright I can pull my body all the way over against the down tube if I have to. Maybe I've been flying prone incorrectly, but I have felt that the prone position gives less control authority in exchange for reduced drag. Granted, the base tube gives you more leverage against the glider, but the position of your arms is much worse from a body mechanics standpoint for applying force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HZ9fDYbsIg


Come on, Doug. Get your hands up on the control tubes for more weight shift authority in that shit air.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33515
How to H2 in SoCal {video}

Orion Price - 2015/10/13 23:24:57 UTC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oga5dkOTPJY

[Steve Davy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fxDqCJ5le4


Wow! Talk about going out of one's way in order to try to become a statistic.
You need to get your hands on the control tubes way earlier and get them up higher for maximum control, Aussie method guy.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34341
My best flight yet

Mike Badley - 2016/05/05 15:11:57 UTC

Also, I think you might want to start thinking about those approaches where you are on the uprights so early. You can get in a lot of trouble flying from the uprights because you give up roll control and tend to not push into the control frame to keep your speed up. All nice and easy with that headwind - not as nice with a no-winder. Maybe just stay on the basetube longer until you get to your final. (IMHO)

An inkling of sanity begins to rear its ugly head on The Jack Show.

Leo Jones - 2016/05/05 15:49:42 UTC
California

Flying on the downtubes

I most definitely agree. Robert, it's not safe to get onto the downtubes that early. Not only do you lose roll control, but it's difficult to fly the glider fast enough to land safely in a gusty wind gradient.

Just DIFFICULT. You can still do it - it's just that it takes a lot more work and focus.

As an experiment, next time you are high...

...crank up some Hendrix and see if you perceive in a way you never have before.

...get onto the downtubes and note how fast you can fly. In many gliders it's very difficult to fly more than 30 mph or so in that position, and that is unsafe if you descend into a wind gradient - you can suddenly stall.

Or get hit by an invisible dust devil - the way Joe Julik was at Whitewater a couple Septembers ago.

If you get rolled too then you are turning, stalled, out of control near the ground...

And you'll need to work even harder to keep things together.

Keep both hands on the basetube until you have turned final. Then put ONE hand up.

Oh well...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

I guess this is the best we can hope for at this point in our devolution.

Keep the other one on the basetube until you are into ground effect. That makes it easy to pull in. As you enter ground effect don't put your other hand up until you are at trim speed, that way you don't pop up when you transition.

Practice this at altitude first, and your landing will be much safer and more controllable.

Survivable.

Robert Kesselring - 2016/05/06 10:51:12 UTC

I hear what you're saying and they're good points, but I also like the early transition because it simplifies the last few seconds before landing, allowing me to concentrate on feeling out the right flair timing.

Gotta get that timing perfected. Then you can start working on the spelling.

Also, by transitioning early, I increase my drag, and therefore my sink rate, which means less time at low altitude.

Like when you're trying to cross a questionable bridge with a heavy truck. Ya wanna go really fast so you're on it and at risk for a much shorter period.

I am working on an idea...

Oh, perish the thought. That last idea was so brilliant I think I sustained permanent retinal damage.

...to give me the best of both worlds. That being transitioning early, and then extending my feet and legs forward in an L-sit position on final.

Speaking on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of hang glider pilots who've preceded you over the decades... DAMN! Why didn't WE think of that!

Moving my legs and feet forward will move my CG forward at least as much as I could get it while flying prone...

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...and having the ability to twist, thus extending my legs and feet sideways should give me gobs of roll authority.

Un fucking believable.

The only down-side that I can see...

You found one. Please, tell us what it is. I thought about this one for hours and came up totally empty.

...is that it will take abs capable of holding an L-sit position for several seconds, possibly at 2 or more G if things go sideways...

How could anything POSSIBLY go sideways with a strategy like that?

...(Though I doubt my wife will consider this a "down-side" ). I will, of course, practice this, as well as the 1-up-1-down technique, at altitude before attempting to change my landing procedure.

Yeah. Practice that a lot. The landing procedure you've been using to date is tried and true and has a very long track record - 'specially in the context of your personal flying.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34341
My best flight yet

Kevin_O - 2016/05/06 12:18:37 UTC
North Georgia

Robert, congratulations on the great flight!

Yeah. The hook-in check and landing don't count as parts of the flight.

I'm pretty much at the same place as you in my flying: learned at LMFP...

...now fully engaged in trying to unlearn all the total crap I was taught at Lockout Mountain Flight Park...

...also fly a Horizon ET 160, have 69 flights, 17-18 hours, just recently had my best flight which I won't describe here, but I will report that I forgot to turn the camera on.

Oh well, at least you remembered to hook in and do a hang check.

Anyhow, on the business of getting on the down tubes at 300', more experienced guys than me have chimed in, but I wanted to give my perspective as an H2 like you.

Hopefully there are no other Hang Twos like Robert.

I do it exactly as thermaleo has described, and it makes the most sense to me.

What is it about Niki's approach and landing...

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...that doesn't make sense to you? Not acceptable when you're landing in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place?

I think the idea to get on the base tubes early and then control pitch with your feet out in front of you would work...

Get on the whats?

...but not consistently.

Well fuck. Since when was two out of three times a problem in aviation?

If you hit a little gust on final, get turned, and react, not remembering to keep your feet out in front to maintain airspeed, and letting them swing back into normal position, it seems that you could easily pop the nose while trying to correct a turn or most any other time you got hit with something down low.

Have you ever actually seen anyone do anything this insane? Ever wonder why not?

Leo Jones - 2016/05/06 16:39:08 UTC

Robert Kesselring - 2016/05/06 10:51:12 UTC

Moving my legs and feet forward will move my CG forward at least as much as I could get it while flying prone.

No it won't, this is a very inadvisable technique...

Kinda depends upon the individual to whom one is advising it, don't it?

...and is a good way to break your legs...

Not to mention your fuckin' neck.

...in a bad landing...

In A bad landing? How would it be possible to have some other kind of landing attempting this insanity?

...when you stall...

Catch that, Robert? WHEN you stall?

...in a nasty wind gradient because you can't pull in enough. When you are landing your feet should be trailing behind you. When you flare they will swing forward so you land on them.

And then he blows it talking about WHEN you flare. (Notice the way he spelled "flair", Robert?)

Robert I earnestly advise you to learn from the experience of others.

Isn't that what he already paid for down at Lockout? All your Jack Show asshole buddies are jumping all over anyone who dares mention self teaching flying but I'm having a hard time seeing how most of these bozos aren't astronomically worse off for having the u$hPa certified crap.

Like you, when I was a novice, for some years I liked to get on the downtubes somewhat early - not at 300 ft but at 50 ft or so. But I found out twenty years ago that with modern gliders and harnesses it was very difficult to keep enough speed on in the final phase of landing.

Was never too bad with the pre 1996 stuff.

As I advised, try flying on the downtubes at altitude and see how fast you can fly. I found that on my XC, Fusion, and T2 it's difficult to fly fast enough like this, let alone have good roll control.

Tend to be a bit interrelated, don't they?

When I switched to keeping one hand down, all the way into ground effect, my landings were far safer.

Were they as safe as they possibly could be?

Yes, you can get away with flying in on the downtubes, in mellow conditions, but try this on a hot gusty afternoon with a severe wind gradient and you will eventually get stalled and turned near the ground. I hope it's only aluminum you break.

I dunno... If he really fucks himself up and lives long enough to post the video we get some more really awesome educational material.

Watch how the expert pilots do it - none of them put both hands on the downtubes until they are in ground effect.

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2016/05/06 17:33:05 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Heli1

Robert Kesselring - 2016/05/06 17:02:46 UTC

When you are landing your feet should be trailing behind you. When you flare they will swing forward so you land on them.

I agree.
You've completely mis-understood what I said.

Thank Gawd. I knew you couldn't possibly be that unhinged.

Leo Jones - 2016/05/06 18:28:40 UTC

Robert, it doesn't matter how much you move your feet or legs forward - this will not affect your hang position, nor enable you to pull more speed.

But if you want a second opinion be sure to talk to Ryan.

The ONLY way you can fly faster is if you are able to pull the bar in.

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If you are on the downtubes you are severely limited in your ability to do.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

But extending your legs forward will certainly make for crappy landings, and puts you at risk for breaking your legs. Oh it may not seem like it, when you are landing at sea level with a nice headwind. But don't get into a habit of doing this, because one day you will be landing at altitude, on a hot day with a severe gusty wind gradient, and it won't be pretty.

Leave him the fuck alone. He records nice high resolution videos.

But what do I know - I've only been flying hang gliders since 1979 and only have a couple of thousand hours.!

Well yeah, but you've never come in upright with your legs held forward to help get your nose down.

Tom Galvin - 2016/05/06 18:44:33 UTC

I saw a hang check, but I did not see a hook in check.

That's a GOOD thing, Tom. No false sense of security as he starts his run.

Mike Badley - 2016/05/06 20:58:33 UTC

You are a great one for a lot of input - but I see you kind of need to experience and try things out for yourself. Hey, that's OK - but really, were I in your shoes at this stage of the game again, I would listen to the experienced guys and say 'I'll try that and see how she goes'. You wouldn't ski down a hill with the 'snowplow, or stem-Christie once you got your parallel turns down. In the same way, you should be learning to stay on that base tube and not transition too early. Having control in a rowdy LZ is REALLY difficult from the downtubes.

But, like I've said, CAN be done. And challenging ourselves with difficult tasks is what makes us better pilots.

Get unzipped early, let your knees dangle out but keep your feet in the boot, do the 'one hand at a time' transition...

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...when you drop your feet out. You will get that down pretty quick and it will really pay off for you in the future.

That other stuff about moving your legs forward isn't going to work. The only thing you can do is push your chest more INTO the control frame, which will put your arms more behind you and make your 'last' and triceps do all the work to control your glider. That's a lot of work.

And snap one or two of your arms in half when the glider stops abruptly and you don't.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34341
My best flight yet

Robert Kesselring - 2016/05/06 22:05:09 UTC

I do greatly appreciate all the input, and I WILL try it. There's a progression though.

From beyond what is generally considered one extreme end - where you are - to:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

Before I try to fly my final prone...

The way I did on my first fucking flight on the dunes...

...I feel like there are a couple of preliminary things I need to master first. One is my propensity to cross control.

I "MASTERED" that on my SECOND lesson.

Getting hit by even mild turbulence 10 feet off the ground could be bad news if it takes me a second to realize that I'm cross controlling and to correct it.

Jesus H. Christ.

The other is that I still need to work on my flair timing and mechanics.

- You've seen "FLARE" spelled correctly since your last post.

- Do let us all know when you've MASTERED your flair timing.

- Lemme tell ya sumpin', dickhead... Flying isn't about "MASTERING" "SKILLS". It's about getting up/down/left/right controls hardwired in your brain and developing the JUDGMENT required to employ them and survive doing what you want to with the glider.

I don't always land as well as I did in this video.

Lucky us. Now we get to hold this one up as textbook.

No wind landings on flat ground are what I practiced at LMFP, so they are the easiest for me.

As will be the landings in switchy narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place for which the Lockout Mountain Flight Park landings were preparing you.

Anything other then that, and I'm hit-and-miss.

So much for the value of a Lockout issued Two rating.

I don't want to try to multitask a transition at the same time I'm trying to feel out when and how aggressively to flair.

And obviously there's no fuckin' way you can defer learning to feel out when and how aggressively to flair.

Flying prone until just prior to flair may very well be the best way for an expert to handle a turbulent LZ, but I'm not an expert.

You will be soon when you've mastered your flair timing and not cross controlling.

I'm a very cautious person by nature...

You should get to know Tom Lyon.

...and I feel like drastic changes are a recipe for disaster...

You're right. You don't wanna abandon what you've been doing too hastily. After all, you haven't killed yourself with any of it so far.

...so I'll make baby steps, feeling things out 1 very tiny change at a time to see what is going to work for me and what isn't.

Yeah, it's really important to see what will and won't work for YOU. The aerodynamics of hang glider flight and control are such personal things.

At this point, the best way for me to handle an overly turbulent LZ is to not fly.

And pray that when you DO fly the LZ won't BECOME overly turbulent.

In addition to trying out the expert techniques...

Name some "expert techniques" in conventional fixed wing aircraft piloting.

I also like to try out my own ideas, again in tiny steps and with vast margins for error.

What kind of total fucking moron Hang Two thinks that he's gonna come up with some new ideas for flying hang gliders that have seen untold tens of millions of hours over the decades by pilots who've flown their brains out doing multi-hundred mile XC and totally insane aerobatics? You think there's something that CAN be done on a hang glider HASN'T been a few million times over?

Everyone's different...

Not from Mother Nature's point of view. She only cares about what the glider the person is hooked into is doing at any given moment.

...so I may stumble upon something that works well for me that others may have tried before and discarded because it didn't work well for them.

Cite a single example of some bullshit like that from anywhere in the history of the sport.

I like to run my ideas past the forum...

Yeah. THE forum. The forum with members who after decades of aerotowing still haven't been able to figure out what the fuck a weak link is and what it's supposed to do.

...to see why they didn't work for others, so that I'll be able to decide if those reasons apply to me.

Fuckin' monument to the total crappiness of Lockout Mountain Flight Park instruction.

Some may see my reluctance to make immediate changes, and my willingness to explore my own weird ideas as arrogance, but I assure you, it's not.

I don't know what it is. I learned on the dunes and saw guys like Glenn Hockett and Tom Haddon doing with gliders everything that gliders were capable of doing in that environment and learned to duplicate it. And in over a quarter century of all flavors of flying I never came close to thinking there was some hitherto undiscovered technique that I was gonna develop and which might work for me better than everybody else.

It's just me being very cautious about change and wanting to explore all options.

Bullshit. One doesn't explore all options progressing one millimeter a weekend unless one's got a five thousand year life expectancy.

The consequences of making a change too quickly and finding out that it doesn't work for me, could be severe.

I one hundred percent guarantee you that the vast majority of fatalities in this sport are precipitated by assholes dedicated to NOT making changes and finding out way to late that what they've been doing won't be working for them when the shit hits the fan. You wanna become a competent pilot you constantly push your comfort level and make every landing a worst case scenario drill.

And on the subject of landing control authority look no further than Joe Julik and Jesse Fulkersin from the last two early autumns. If they had been coming in like:

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their landings would've been total nonevents rather than life enders.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34341
My best flight yet

Leo Jones - 2016/05/07 01:00:12 UTC

Robert, you are not flying prone just prior to flare.

- How 'bout just prior to flair?
- Why do we need to flare?

I don't do that and I don't recommend you try.

Why are you recommending that he flare? You've heard him say he intends to master the timing. Name somebody from the entire history of hang gliding who claims to have done that.

I am generally unzipped at 1000ft AGL, VG set to about 1/3, instruments rotated sideways so I don't whack 'em.

See? With your couple thousand hours and 37 year career you haven't mastered it and aren't claiming to have.

I make sure my feet are free but keep them in the boot.

Downwind at c.150 ft my knees are hanging out. Crosswind at c.75ft still flying on the base tube, but not prone - more like 45 degrees, feet still in harness. Turn finals at c.40-50 ft...

Dontchya know you're not supposed to be doing any turns below two hundred feet? You're doing your whole fucking approach pattern starting from three quarters of that. Last turn is a quarter to a fifth of that.

...both hands still on the basetube, and as soon as my wings are level and my speed is stable, my feet come out and I put one hand up on to the downtube.

Why?

My body is now about as upright as I can get in a backplate harness. I then consciously pull in (much easier with one hand down)...

How does that compare to two hands down? Better? Worse? Same?

...and fly her all the way down into ground effect.

Now there's a novel thought - flying the glider all the way down into ground effect.

It's easy to fly one hand up, one down - try it - you have full control.

Bullshit. Show me the glider that was certified flying one up / one down.

As speed bleeds off I wait until I don't have strong bar pressure, (otherwise you will balloon up) then put my other hand up when my feet are maybe 6ft off the ground, several seconds at least before I flare.

If you're in the environment you obviously are then why do you need to flare?

Try it when you have some altitude, though don't do the full flare part!

Oh. So you think a whipstall at altitude is dangerous. Would that have any implications relevant to the Zack Marzec inconvenience fatality?

A tip - don't round out too high, round out with some speed when your feet are only just above the grass...

Oh. You land on a GRASS surface. And here I was thinking narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place.

...then gently bleed off speed - lots of pilots slow down and round out too high, and end up stalled with no flare left at 10 ft.

Why not just gently bleed off speed until the glider settles on the wheels?

See here - my landing starts at 1.27:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t8BCAYUV9A

- Some of the nicer looking approaches I've seen on video.

- Gee. They all look pretty much the same. What a coincidence that four consecutive gliders are using the same technique and it's working equally well for each individual. Probably wouldn't work for Robert though.

- Whoa! A big flat grassy field! And here I was thinking that experienced pilots only landed in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place.

- Not a single wheel or substantial skid amongst them.

- These are all toplesses and there's a nice smooth headwind coming in. Glider Number Two punches it way early and experiences a downtube threatening pancake. Twenty-five percent crap landing for a pilot pool with at least a century's worth of total experience in brain dead easy conditions. What's that say about...

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

...the advisability of requiring Ones and Twos to learn and execute stunt landings?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26854
Skids versus wheels

Andrew Stakhov - 2012/08/11 13:52:35 UTC

So I just came back from flying in Austria (awesome place btw). Stark difference I noticed is a large chunk of pilots choose to fly with skids instead of wheels. Conversations I had with pilots they say they actually work better in certain situations as they don't get plugged up like smaller wheels. Even larger heavier Atosses were all flying with skids. I was curious why they consistently chose to land on skids on those expensive machines and they were saying that it's just not worth the risk of a mistimed flare or wing hitting the ground... And those are all carbon frames etc.

Hope this helps.

I'm sure hoping it helps shut Tom Lyon the fuck up.

[Steve Davy]

That 2:27 landing by Scot Huber sure was pretty.