Releases

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Releases

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http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line
John - 2013/07/04 03:24:52 UTC

Do Some People Not Like Kochs?

(quoting entire message by Billo, right above)
Well, the entire message by Billo is right above NOW... But before it was mysteriously deleted Bart Weghorst's message - posted nineteen minutes and nineteen seconds prior - was right above yours.
Billo please elaborate mate. Is this the configuration you currently use?
Who the fuck cares? He's not at the bottom of the heap but he doesn't really know what he's doing or talking about.
Barrel release as a primary and the Linknife as a secondary?
Fuck the Linknife. It doesn't solve any real problems and people who use it don't know what they're doing or talking about.
I haven't towed in years, but when I did I used a three point...
Pilot, glider, and what else?
...with Wallaby handle release on down tube as a primary...
Joe Gregor - 2004/09

There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
...and the barrel as a secondary.
You're dead already. What possible use could you have for a secondary or backup?
I have pro towed only once.
After you took the pro test and demonstrated your ability to control the glider to the same degree as an amateur can control it towing two point?
Since then I have purchased the Linknife but haven't used it yet. I think the barrel and the Linknife is the best option for me using a pro tow setup.
Why? What physical or psychological traits do you have that make a particular release configuration best for you and not for somebody else?
Just need to get current at towing again.
Not with the crap you're planning on using. And not with the attention you've been paying to posts about DECENT towing equipment.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line
Marc Fink - 2013/07/04 13:02:29 UTC
Gordon Marshall - 2013/07/04 02:25:42 UTC

Chest mounted parachute??? why? another product to get pushed through your ribcage, please its the year 2013 have we not learnt anything or are we still burying our head up our own arse and saying that because I use it it must be the best!!
Nit-pick here: I have personally tumbled a hang glider from around 300 ft agl and impacted the ground at very high velocity, almost getting killed in the process (spent a week in ICU with all kinds of nasty injuries).
Rotored behind a finger ridge northeast of the Daniels Mountain launch near Stanardsville, Virginia.
I happened to be wearing a chest-mount chute at the time which actually absorbed much of the chest-area impact force and was ripped from the container in the process. I did suffer a torn spleen and internal hemorrhaging, but in this particular case there's no doubt in my mind without the chest-mount (and full face helmet) I would have been killed in the crash.
And Pete Lehmann is very likely still alive because of a chest mounted parachute that stayed in the container after he neglected to install a downtube/basetube junction bolt and his HPAT 158 folded up a couple of hundred feet over the Fisher Road launch of Harbor Mountain north of Breezewood, Pennsylvania. The gene pool didn't make out too well on either of those, but...

This Gordo guy is a total moron.
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Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line
Rdp_au - 2013/07/08 02:48:20 UTC

Back to the OP's topic. I had an unable to release off the tow line experience back in the Eighties. We were using a new non braided rope for a leader...
Which you needed because?
...on a winch launch and it twisted up under tension. This wrapped up the release (one of the dreaded snap shackles) and the release line.
Dangerous Hewett crap.
Impossible to free it and we didn't use hook knives then.
But since Donnell came along and established the crap release as an acceptable norm EVERYBODY has a hook knife.
Conventional wisdom at the time was that if you couldn't get off the line...
Sorry, I lost interest at:
if you couldn't get off the line...
...spiral down and land towards the winch, keeping the rope away from obstacles and inside the fence if possible.
Yeah. If possible. That's how come one doesn't permit oneself to get into shit that deep.
That's what I did - pulled in hard, put the glider into a slipping turn and spiralled down directly over the winch. Fortunately we did have radios, so I could let the driver know there was a problem and he cut the power and let the line run.
Otherwise he'd have assumed everything was going reasonably well and would've kept cranking to get you back up where you belonged. Don't ever tow without radios, kids.
Once I got down to a hundred feet or so, pulled around into a short circuit and headed towards the winch. The landing was pretty ordinary and I bent an upright...
Yep. Try using a fringe element wheel landing if you find the pretty ordinary ones are getting a bit expensive.
...but considering the possibilities, I was pretty happy to get away with it.
Yep. You got away with it.
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Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line
William Olive - 2013/07/05 02:58:47 UTC
John - 2013/07/04 03:24:52 UTC

Is this the configuration you currently use?
It was, until someone stole my old pod harness and with it my last Linknife. I don't think Peter makes them anymore, but I could be wrong.

I liked that barrell/Linknife option. Many just use a barrel on each side, and that's what I'll do from now on. The Linknife is good, it forces you to replace your weaklink every tow...
It also forces you to take your hand off the basetube every tow - every flight of your career, whether that career ends at your decision or because you were forced to take your hand off the basetube when you couldn't afford to.
...whereas the barrel lets you keep on using a weaklink far past its use by date.
So?
Donnell Hewett - 1981/10

In skyting we use a simple and inexpensive strand of nylon fishing line which breaks at the desired tension limit. There is no possible way for it to jam and fail to release when the maximum tension is exceeded. Sure, it may get weaker through aging or wear and break too soon, but it cannot get stronger and fail to break. If it does break too soon, so what? We simply replace it with a fresh one.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4593
Weaklinks
Peter Birren - 2005/02/08 19:22:49 UTC

What is the big issue? Re-launching? Oh, the wasted time! Oh, the hassle! Oh, the embarrassment! These are sure preferrable to Oh Shit!
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/25 19:21:57 UTC

Why lower numbers? Because your choice is lower or higher... and higher is more dangerous than lower.
Surely you're not suggesting that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Swift - 2013/02/27 14:22:49 UTC

Zack wasn't "sitting on the couch" when a cheap piece of string made the decision to dump him at the worst possible time.
William Olive - 2013/02/27 20:55:06 UTC

Like the rest of us, you have no idea what really happened on that tow.
We probably never will know.
...a weak link far past its due date could POSSIBLY have a serious consequence for a glider?

Slimy two-faced motherfucker.
William Stroud - 2013/07/05 13:49:37 UTC

I talked with Peter Birren last night. He is still making the linknife and presently has 700 in stock.
I'm really curious about his take on the Zack Marzec fatality and all this sudden interest in the nonstandard aerotow weak links that are suddenly getting used and tested by some of the big aerotow operations. Did you happen to get it - or did you have more important things to discuss?

Any chance he'd come out and discuss it on The Davis Show? Or, even better, the Jack Show where you don't need the permission of the "moderator" to read it?

Seems to me that Zack might have really benefited from something that popped him off tow whenever...

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus[/video]

...his nose started getting a bit too high.

Image

I mean... Pat Denevan uses them at HIS operation...

http://www.birrendesign.com/LKOpinions.html
Pitch & Lockout Limiter
Peter Birren

2002 - Pat Denevan is using a "nose line" as an automatic release with great success.
As a matter of fact you can see Lin Lyons disconnecting his here at 1:09:

http://vimeo.com/68791399


when it starts to limit his pitch a little too well.

And Pat Denevan...
The Mission Soaring Hang Gliding school provides professional training on state-of-the-art equipment at our dedicated training site at Tres Pinos just south of the San Jose / San Francisco Bay Area.
...is very particular about providing professional training on state-of-the-art equipment.

162-20727
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8576/16673571861_3962427127_o.png
Image

Just ask him.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap
Diev Hart - 2013/07/02 14:03:20 UTC
Mike Lake - 2013/07/02 10:56:21 UTC

I was going to make a longish post...
All great stuff...and I will add...

PLEASE STOP USING THIS WINCH UNTIL IT HAS A QUICK WAY TO CHOP THE LINE...YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO KILL SOMEONE !!!!.
And - for the LOVE OF GOD - if you're flying with a release with which you've had issues releasing under load...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction
Diev Hart - 2011/07/14 17:19:12 UTC

I have had issues with them releasing under load. So I don't try to release it under a lot of load now.
...don't try to release it under a lot of load! I can't BEGIN to tell you how dangerous that could be! You could find yourself upside down under with your parachute bridle wrapped around a nose wire hoping to miss the powerlines again. Always release BEFORE there is a problem.
WEAKLINKS DO NOT BREAK UNDER TENSION (DID YOURS?)...IT TAKES MORE THAN THAT...
ALWAYS a moderate amount of pressure in addition to or instead of the tension.
...please read up on what they are for.
Are you sure that's a good idea? He's 72 already. He'll be at least 75 just by the time he gets through the Trisa Tilletti article in the 2012/06 issue of the magazine.
Just sad this has happened...so not cool.
Nah, it's not just sad. It's fuckin' just outrageous if it's just anything.
Erik Boehm - 2013/07/02 14:28:56 UTC

Don't be too upset at the armchair quarterbacking...
And a Russian novel's worth of armchair quarterbacking on:
- parachute deployment
- hook knives
- signaling
- radios
- spiraling down while welded to the towline
- dealing with a bridle routed over the towline with and aft pull
deltaman - 2013/07/02 14:45:11 UTC

BENT PIN BARREL
Davis Straub - 2013/07/01 13:47:13 UTC

Again, why not a simple barrel release?
'cause a barrel release (+bridle) has a VERY POOR ratio [Load]/[Actuation effort] = 6.2, not at all suitable with possible high towing tensions.
Assuming a half of the tow tension, a bent pin barrel release (Bailey style) would need until 28lb force to actuate with a 350lb weaklink. How much was Lin's one ?

Image

So, in a lockout situation, with a sleeping man at the winch side, the tension will increase, but not enough to blow the weaklink 'cause
Tim Dyer - 2013/06/29 17:03:26 UTC

Weak links are not for lock-outs. They prevent the glider from over stressing. You can lock-out all the way to the ground and still have an intact weak-link.
As the tension get higher you would have difficulties or just couldn't release ..what is particularly insane for a 'release'.
(Just have a test on your bathroom directly with your own weight, and compare with a straight pin barrel(3.3 less actuation effort.))
Andrew Stakhov - 2013/07/02 05:23:39 UTC

I know of guys that tried using (bent pin) barrels for winch towing and they personally testified they were very difficult to release...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

The (bent pin) barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the (bent pin) barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
Just have a look how easy it already is with low tow tension:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FoJoZ0fEDg
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FoJoZ0fEDg[/video]

TOW RELEASE
Koch release is probably a good choice
http://www.drachenfliegenlernen.de/images/kochklinke.jpg
Image

For the adorers of HOOK KNIVES, remember this 30sec urgent take out and use :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJGUJO5BjnA
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJGUJO5BjnA[/video]
Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 14:58:46 UTC

A tad bit suspicious.
Yeah, Davis. Antoine's post is a TAD bit suspicious but:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Davis Straub - 2013/02/13 15:45:22 UTC

We have no agreement that a stronger weaklink would make it safer.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

I'm thinking about doing a bit more testing as there seemed to be some disagreement around here about what the average breaking strength of a loop of Greenspot (or orange) weaklink was.
Davis Straub - 2013/03/10 14:09:22 UTC

I've had no problem releasing my barrel release hundreds of times.
Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 17:43:53 UTC

I've had hundreds of aerotows and witnessed many thousands more. I've never seen nor personally heard of any problem releasing with a barrel release.
Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 19:55:51 UTC

Did I say that any part of it was due to the Koch release?
and all of:
- your locked down threads
- the sudden interest in TowMeUp stronglinks by Mark Knight, Jim Rooney, Mark Dowsett, Quest in the wake of the Zack Marzec fatality
aren't.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap
Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 15:07:30 UTC

I thought it was pretty weird to have a high winch tow setup where there was the tow line over the top of the bar. Seems like it led to the obvious situation of the nose going down when there was a problem.
Duh.
A few years ago I showed a picture of Steve Wendt's set up with the two stage release with the three ring circus below the bar and a shorter barrel release/bridle above the bar that was released early.
Astounding that it hasn't really caught on yet.
I understand the point of having a three ring circus that works under high pressure (although not under no pressure).
And tension is pretty much irrelevant in hang glider towing.
I haven't winched towed high with just a barrel release and bridle over the bar, just low and slow, and that worked fine.
Yeah, it's really hard to imagine things NOT working fine...

http://media.utsandiego.com/img/photos/2013/07/08/San_Francisco_Airline_Kles1_r620x413.jpg
Image

...when you're low and slow.
I have aerotowed with plenty of force on the line with just the barrel release and bridle and there was no problem releasing.
- Yes Davis, with PLENTY of force. Make sure we follow USHGA aerotowing SOPs and never use any actual numbers - other, of course than two, three, and four with respect to strands of 130 pound Greenspot and hundreds of thousands with respect to the track records of proven systems that work. You can get your rating revoked for talking about pounds.

- PLENTY of force...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaVg_bzK3Aw


Enough to get you ten, twenty, sometimes thirty feet up off the cart.

- And there's never any problem releasing because in a lockout...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32824
Weaklink testing
Davis Straub - 2013/07/05 19:20:13 UTC

I have never had to wait for a weaklink to break. It has happened far faster than I have been able to react.
...you have no possibility of GETTING TO your bent pin piece of Davis shit before your Davis Link has blown if you're high or before you've slammed in if you're not.

- So if you're so confident in your bent pin piece of Davis shit, how come...
Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.
...you're always so fucking convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the Marzec Link as a release and that the whole business about a weak link being only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case or a good idea for hang gliding?
I have yet to hear of or see any actual experience with pilots winch towing with the barrel release above the bar and having any problem with releasing under pressure. Has anyone?
Fuck no.

Image

It's mostly just aerotowing.
Or is this just theoretical?
It's just theoretical.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.

No stress because I was high.
And theory is based on mathematical models, experimental testing, field data while hang gliding is based on totally and repeatedly ignoring any mathematical models, experimental testing, field data it doesn't like.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap
Brad Barkley - 2013/07/02 15:28:21 UTC
Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 14:58:46 UTC

A tad bit suspicious.
Joke stealer!! Image Image
That was HYSTERICAL!!! It took me at least five minutes before I could pick myself back up off the floor and regain my composure. You guys really oughta be getting your own late night shows.
But yeah, writing styles are pretty much like fingerprints, aren't they....
You got me. Can't fool you guys. Gotta learn to include more moronic crap in my posts so I can stay under the radar a little better. (Ten miles south of useless goddam pieces of shit.)
bisleybob - 2013/07/02 21:52:19 UTC
East Coast, England

Simple points

Use a release that not only works 100% of the time...
Yeah, right.
...but is easy and quick to use, needs no pulling or tugging or even looking down.
What is it that you're smoking and where can I get some?
Please watch. Sorry about quality - it's an old video. I'll do a better one of our whole system if people really want to see it.
If you live that long flying that release of yours that not only works one hundred percent of the time but is easy and quick to use and needs no pulling or tugging or even looking down.

Lemme tell ya' sumpin', asshole...

It's a core principle of hang gliding that there's no such thing as a release system that works better than sixty percent of the time. And if we don't bend the pins of our release and make them three times harder and put little loops of 130 pound test fishing line on our bridles to ensure that we'll blow off tow at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation, pretty soon we'll almost totally eliminate tow crashes and fatalities. And then...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face
Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16

We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.
...what could possibly remain to attract us to this sport?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDStOEaOqHY


Secondly use a two line system so the line at the top can't pull the bar in and can't lift the bar up at the start. Change lines at a suitable point between by the very same device mentioned above the same device which with one tap will release both lines 100% of the time in a flash without tugging or pulling.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?
Jim Rooney - 2011/02/06 18:35:13

I don't really have anything against the Kotch release.
I think it's big, clunky and expensive, but I'm sure it works fine.
I'm also sure it has it's problems just like any other system. The minute someone starts telling me about their "perfect"system, I start walking away.
Sorry, the minute you started telling me about your "perfect" system I started walking away - straight back to the state-of-the-art equipment that Mission uses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fPdboRjERM


Third have a good winch that has a guillotine mechanism on the throttle handle so a simple push cuts the line in no more than a second. And then have trained operators.
He HAD a trained operator. Did you catch how well he watched in horror when he had a glider with a locked release?
Watch how quick he backs off when the leg signal is given. I guarantee if I got in trouble the guillotine would be quicker. Here watch again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3cUiByGMTM
Needs editing.
Finally sell your hook knife on hanggliding.org for twice what you paid for it as the demand is currently high.
Hard to believe that everyone on hanggliding.org doesn't already have five or six of them mounted on his harness.

Ever notice how the only criticism of good towing equipment comes from sellers, users, and supporters of Industry Standard crap?
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Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap
Lin Lyons - 2013/07/03 15:24:03 UTC

Several of the comments I've read have recommended a chest release.
However, I see them used when towing.
When standing and running, you want the pressure at your waist.
Yeah Lin, let's start explaining to the people who actually use them and HAVEN'T had to rely on parachute deployments to save their lives what's wrong them and talking about tow pressures.
If the pressure is chest high, it makes you want to fall over.
Can I pour you some more Kool-Aid?
Similarly, if it was at your knees, it would be trying to pull your feet out from under you.
I've done considerable waterskiing, and know that with the pressure on your arms, you have to lean quite far back to be able to stand up.
- Gee, you'd think they'd just fall flat on their faces and drown.
- Have you done any scuba diving? Can you tell me what the tension feels like at a hundred feet?
That's not what you want to do when hang gliding.
You want the pressure about your waist so you run standing straight up.
Sounds like you got this hang gliding thing pretty well doped out. Any possibility of Pat taking you on as an instructor, winch operator, or equipment specialist?
Clearly a barrel release can be used anywhere.
Clearly. Except:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
- when you've got too much pressure on it
Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
- in any kind of emergency situation
I've seen a bar across flier's chest.
Do they have that bar for the whole flight?
It would seem so.
Do people use that bar other than when towing?
Is it attached at the chest or waist?
Does it get in the way when landing?
He just showed you three videos and it's been in continuous use for the better part of three decades.
Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 15:54:15 UTC

I can't think of anyone that would want a bar across their chest.
Too right, Davis!

What you want in a release is something that's:

http://ozreport.com/goodies.php
Oz Report's Useful Goodies

Pro tow Mini Barrel Release and 750 lb bridle, $40.

It is small and easily stored. If you can't store it during flight, it is the most aerodynamic one available. The bridle is thin and gets out of your way right away. Easily stored. Also creates less drag if you don't put it away. Much stronger than your weaklink.
- small and easily stored
- the most aerodynamic one available if you can't store it during flight
- thin and gets out of your way right away
- easily stored
- creates less drag if you don't put it away
- much stronger than your weak link (unless you're using Bart Weghorst's weak link
From the video it appears that you are being towed from tabs that are at about chest height.
From this series of photographs:

Image
Image
Image
Image

it appears that you are being towed from your wobbly launch dolly straight into the ground and that you may not have thoroughly considered all of the qualities desirable in a release.
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Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap
Lin Lyons - 2013/07/03 16:38:14 UTC

I've been flying down in Hollister, with Mission Soaring, for a bit over a year.
I started because I've always wanted to fly, and now that I'm old and retired, I have time.
None of my friends were hang gliders before I started.
Name some glider people you count as friends.
I have seen folks out at Funston for many years, but just didn't get to it.
I also, back in the Seventies, saw someone bring his Regallo rig to Point Reyes, hike up a dune, take off, stall, and peel right and bend a wing spar.
At this point, I've gotten my Hang 2, and have two to three hundred flights...
Guess we're not keeping a logbook.
...most of which are five to ten seconds on the training hill.
Guess you're really good at foot launching and foot landing now.
- How much good was all that practice good for on 2013/06/15?
- Is it possible that some of the time and effort that went into all those bunny hill hops been put to better advantage elsewhere?
I do have eighty-some flights (says Pat) off the tow though.
- Guess we're not keeping a logbook.
- Does it count as a flight if you're still on tow one second before you're back on the ground and you land upside down under nylon?
Harold (and Pat) is the only mentor that I have right now.
Super. How could you lose?
I presume that there are folks at the various sites that do that.
Why does person have to be on a flying site to act as a mentor?

- You could teach yourself to fly a hang glider isolated from everybody else - like plenty of people did at the beginning of the sport - and do a lot better than a lot of dead people I know about who had FANTASTIC instruction and mentorship from idiots with USHGA qualifications and awards coming out of their asses.

- Nobody with half a brain or better would ever dream of towing up on a piece of fishing line that broke every third or fourth effort in order to keep himself safe without brainwashing from the establishment.

- Assuming you have half a brain or better - and I'm starting to have serious doubts on that - if you had researched remote start surface towing you'd have learned what the proper equipment for the job was, acquired it, and used it without any problem. Instead you used that cheap deadly crap Pat and Harold set you up with and sold you and damn near got killed.
What Harold has told me is that after I fly off the top of Ed Levin, I can go elsewhere, with him and other Mission students, which seems reasonable.
Fuck Harold. You'd be a thousand times better off isolating yourself from him and his other victims and reading Kite Strings to fill the instruction/mentorship void.
I actually did drive up to McClure and watched three or four guys get high enough that I couldn't see them.
That was during the day.
How'd the night flying go?
I drove up to Hat Creek, but didn't fly (my glider's still in the shop).
I only saw people fly around evening glass off there.
Yeah, I know I can do it, but when I looked over the edge, it does cause some consternation.
That's 'cause you weren't hooked into a glider. If keep looking over edges five seconds prior to running off them for every flight thinking of the possibility that you're not hooked into a glider I one hundred percent guarantee you that you'll never run off an edge not hooked into a glider.
Seems that I was wire holder, bailout LZ retriever, and cameraman for the day.

I did try briefly to hang out at Funston, but the folks there didn't seem to want to talk to me, so I left.
Coulda been a lot worse. They might have wanted to talk to you and you might have listened to what they were saying.
Concerning Davis' comment:
Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 15:54:15 UTC

I can't think of anyone that would want a bar across their chest.
From the video it appears that you are being towed from tabs that are at about chest height.
The bridle is attached to tabs on the harness at waist level. Really.
But these were the source of my comment/question.



http://www.linkingwings.de/shop/link2/link2.html
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap
bisleybob - 2013/07/03 16:45:31 UTC

this is utter nonsical rubbish. I kitesurf and too lean back, which I believe is a lot to do with the friction caused as the board is being forced through the water, much like water skiing, but a much closer comparison than that is that I have towed hang gliders with a chest releae for 4+ years and never fallen over or even felt that I might, which is much to do with the fact I have no friction and am running. so this is an actual test of your theory which has now ben proved wrong.
- It wasn't a theory. It was a clueless hypothesis.

- Hey Lin...

-- If there HAD been any substance to your concern about the Koch two stage don't you think your fine instructors at Mission would've been responsible enough to sit you down and warn you about the insane dangers of this approach?

-- How come:
--- there's no advisory on Mission's website - just an assurance that they're using state-of-the-art equipment?
--- Pat and Harold aren't in this conversation giving you covering fire?
50 odd members of our club agree, a club may I add that invented winching in the uk and has been doing it for over 30 years.
Yes. But that's also about the length of time you've been using Hewett Link pitch and lockout preventers to increase the safety of your towing operations.
I hate it when people dream up silly reasons not to use a safe tested system of tried and tested methods against their own silly method. you are surley locked in a conformation bias intent of proving your own method of towing in spite of all the evidence pointing otherwise.
162-20727
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8576/16673571861_3962427127_o.png
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I urge you to please post me one video or report of a chest release failing a pilot in anyway. note: anecdotes not accepted.
Why not?

- We can do pretty good jobs of evaluating the legitimacy of an anecdote.

- Even if the anecdote is false we can evaluate whether or not we've got a potential vulnerability and that fictional scenario may be every bit as valuable as the real deal. I know the Robin Strid release failure:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318769461/
Image Image
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318781297/

was a vulnerability the first time I saw a 2673 Wichard Quick Release Shackle and adapted it as an aerotow release - about thirteen years before Robin was killed - and engineered to eliminate that risk.

- Our awareness of where our biggest threats are coming from are based virtually entirely on anecdotal evidence, hypothetical worst case scenarios, and common sense.
now on the other hand to see what happens when you don't use one navigate to the top of this thread. I rest my case. defence the witness is yours.
How come we haven't subpoenaed or indicted Pat and Harold?
ps to answer your question yes its on the whole flight, you can take it off when not winching, it has never got in the way on landing or otherwise and I have even crashed right on my belly more than once and never felt it. there has NEVER been a reported incident where a chest release was the cause but many where one would have prevented it happening including the one at the top of the thread.
finally no I am not on a commission just keen to live.
If you're keen for other people to live then hammer the fuck out of Davis and Rooney.
Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 16:54:52 UTC

Ah, it just looked like chest level from the video thumbnail from when you were in the air.
Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 16:56:41 UTC

Whenever I've towed from the lower tabs the release has been below the bar.
Super, Davis. And whatever you do should be OK for us to do because either:
- while it just killed someone else, you personally have never had a problem with it; or
- have nearly broken your fucking neck with it but tell us it's not really a problem.
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