I confess to previously having a bit of an Oz Report habit, but the forced login thing has turned me off permanently, and I am in fact grateful. Frankly, the site had pretty much been reduced to a few dedicated sycophants in any case.
When there is Davis locks down the topic and threatens to ban the people he hasn't already banned.
- Ever wonder about other places like The Peter Show that never had allowed public access to the discussions in the first place? Why do these people wanna write stuff that only fellow cult members can read? What is it they feel they need to keep people from finding, reading, knowing about? Seems to me that throughout the history of aviation the only times people interested in advancing it don't want their work read as widely as possible are when they want advantages in shooting down the planes of the other side.
Quest's club house and communal kitchen makes for a great place for socializing before and after flying and a place to hangout when the weather is bad and work on your harness and stuff. They have a few rooms to rent and camping around the field. A great lake to swim in.
Yeah, check out all the cool stuff in this cool video uploaded by Zack Marzec on 2013/02/01:
We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.
...to enhance your enjoyment of the experience. But don't take my word for it. Just ask Paul Edwards:
Mitch will rearrange your face for you at no extra charge.
Matt Christensen - 2013/12/06 01:01:55 UTC
Wow, that seems like a hundred years ago, nice pull Brad. Both are great, I PMed with my recommendations for training.
Why not post them here?
smokenjoe50 - 2013/12/06 01:53:08 UTC
Southern California
Wallaby Ranch hands down.
Where you'll find you need to keep them in a lockout emergency. Which might be a bit of a problem for you because...
Joe Gregor - 2004/09
There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
...Wallaby velcros the release lever onto the starboard downtube.
I had a lot less HG time than you when I went for WW demo days. I did one tandem tow then one solo tow on a Falcon and I was signed off. I was flying the Sport 2 on the third.
smokenjoe50 - 2013/12/06 01:58:06 UTC
I would also like to add that I got my H3 at the same time. I was camping there for a week and did a couple more tows. My total bill was like $240 with a shirt.
How much more does Malcolm charge for towing you with equipment that doesn't totally suck?
Matt Christensen - 2013/12/06 02:09:29 UTC
To be fair, have you flown both for a significant amount of time Joe? If so, what are your compelling reasons for stating so definitively? How quickly you got signed off and what it cost would be two of my last considerations. I am not saying you are wrong, but given the nature of the forum, I think it is good to have a little background on the sources of the opinions shared.
I will qualify my opinion on the subject by saying that I have flown all of the FL flight parks for at least a week each.
The normal braking force in pounds for a weak link is around 180, at least that is the regular weak link line used at most aerotow operations. By adding a second weak link to your bridal you are cutting the load on each link by half, meaning that the weak link will not break at the intended 180 pounds but it will need about 360.
If that is what you use and is what your instructor approved then I have no business on interfering, i dont know if you are using the same weak link material but there shoul be only ONE weak link on a tow bridle for it to be effective in breaking before higher loads are put into you and the glider should the glider gets to an attitude or off track so much that the safety fuse of the link is needed to break you free from the tug.
I made the same mistake on putting two weak links thinking that I was adding protection to my setup and I was corrected by two instructors on separate occacions at Quest Air and at the Florida RIdge.
crap?
smokenjoe50 - 2013/12/06 03:06:14 UTC
Yes my opinion is based on time and money. It's hard to find an instructor that is willing to sign your ticket based on your performance. Most of my experience with instructors has been them trying to empty your wallet before they sign you off.
Larry Jorgensen - 2011/02/17 13:37:47 UTC
Air Adventures NW
Spanaway, Washington
It did not come from the FAA, it came from a USHPA Towing Committee made up of three large aerotow operations that do tandems for hire.
Appalling.
I have flown with the pilot asking the question and I know he will nail it on the first try. Hell if you can foot launch a HG aero tow is a piece of cake.
Totally fucking agree with all of the above. ('Cept you can foot launch a tow.)
Matt Christensen - 2013/12/06 06:05:49 UTC
I guess I am fortunate that I have never felt like the "time and money" were the important factors to focus on with regard to instruction.
You haven't been around as long as some of us have, Matt.
I have never dealt with anyone in the HG business community that I felt was trying to "empty my wallet." Some I have found to be a better value than others, but it is all relative I guess.
You have obviously made some bad decisions when it comes to instruction, if you have had a hard time finding instructors that "sign your ticket" based on performance, because that is what all of them that I have met do.
Commercial hang gliding is a cartel - and there aren't any good options out there.
There is of course a cost associated with acquiring and/or demonstrating your skills.
Why? There are plenty of highly skilled and experienced flyers who are only too happy to mentor and sign off people coming up through the ranks for nothing. I used to be one of them. What would happen if we outlawed commercial hang gliding instruction and made it totally/strictly volunteer and/or nonprofit?
As far as your statement comparing foot launching to aero towing... well the two are completely different skills with their own unique ways to get you killed, so I don't follow you there.
- Would one of those ways unique to aerotowing include flying pro toad and popping a Rooney Link in a monster thermal at 150 feet?
- They're NOT completely different. You can get locked out and fly back into the ground no matter how you start your flight.
If you can do one, you are probably capable of learning the other, but there is plenty to learn and practice before you will be proficient in either.
Rubbish. Left, right, up, down. There's not all that much to this game. Well, except for not stalling when your fishing line suddenly increases the safety of the towing operation and fighting a lockout with one hand while you make the easy reach for your release with the other. I'm still working on those.
I have flown with the pilot asking the question and I know he will nail it on the first try.
What does this mean?
But back to topic of the thread... What is the extent of your experience flying and training at each of the two flight parks if I can ask? I think it is important to know since you are making such an absolute recommendation.
Matt Christensen - 2013/12/06 06:08:07 UTC
Approximately how many mid day aero tows have you logged out of curiosity?
How many midday aerotows did Zack Marzec have before he slammed into the runway and tell me what difference it would've made if he'd been flying at Wallaby or Florida Ridge?
Tell me what recommendations have come out of Quest, Wallaby, Florida Ridge, and/or USHGA to eliminate or reduce the likelihood of a rerun?
Right now the official position of The Industry is that you can have as much in the way of skills and qualifications as possible and if you get hit by a monster or bullet thermal or dust devil at below parachute altitude YOU ARE DEAD. There's nothing you or your driver can do - release early, tow two point, increase or decrease weak link strength - to alter the outcome. No, wait! Maybe you can wear a full face helmet and get lucky and hit chin first.
If there's no real understanding of why the Dragonfly just got bumped up a little while the glider got whipstalled, tumbled, and killed and there's NOTHING that can be done better to alter the outcome then everyone's just rolling dice for every flight when there's a possibility of strong thermal activity. And what the fuck is the point in looking at the fine distinctions between aerotow operations?
smokenjoe50 - 2013/12/06 06:43:25 UTC
I have only had about a dozen aero tows and they were all mid day except for the first two. It's so easy I can't believe anyone would have trouble. Now foot launching a site like Walt's or King with my T2C in no wind with a harness full of shit is a skill.
Meaning it's way more dangerous.
You should give it a try 75 pound glider, 35 pound harness, no wind, 9K, hot as fuck. I'm done arguing my point was go to Wallaby because it's cheap, aero towing is easy, and doesn't require any special skill.
And the anecdotal evidence is OVERWHELMING.
Sorry to hear you find it difficult.
Matt Christensen - 2013/12/06 07:50:34 UTC
I never said I found it difficult and I wasn't arguing, simply sharing my opinion and experiences. You illustrated the point I was trying to make though. As I suspected, you have VERY little experience at aero towing...
How much do you need before you're an expert? As good as you're gonna get?
Your weak link comments are dead on. I have been reading the weak link discussion in the OR with quiet amusement. Quiet, because weak links seem to be one of those hot button issues that brings out the argumentative nature of HG pilots and also invokes the "not designed here" mentality and I really did not want to get drawn into a debate. Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel. Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition. Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.
One of the best of the best qualified to fly stronglinks which, if you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon) won't break before you can get into too much trouble?
...and if you have any experience with Quest, you still haven't shared it.
Who gives a rat's ass about anybody's EXPERIENCE with any of these dumps? Look at their websites, the crap they're selling, the quality stuff they're not selling, YouTube videos, posts from their marks, crash data, what the operators are and aren't saying.
In ripping mid day conditions, even the best pilots in the world will be quick to acknowledge that aero towing can be a handful.
Weather conditions were very benign with light winds and blue skies and the glider was in good airworthy condition.
Throw in a nice crosswind on launch with some rotor over the trees and it is plenty exciting.
How 'bout the slot at Woodstock? I've seen some REAL exciting stuff on those launches.
Pilots far more skilled than you or I have been seriously injured and killed aero towing.
Hang glider pilots far more skilled than ANYBODY get seriously injured and killed doing about anything you wanna name in this sport all the time. Skills beyond solid 2.0, 2.5 level tend not to be of any use right after you've done something really stupid.
To suggest that no skill is required simply earmarks you as a dangerous source for advice.
The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2013/12/06
If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.
simply earmark and Quest as? I couldn't possibly imagine any more dangerous sources of advice than those two sets of total douchebags. And I missed your comments on Dr. Trisa Tilletti's article on weak links in the 2012/06 issue of the magazine. Safe sources of "ADVICE" are virtually nonexistent in hang gliding - particularly from commercial hang gliding and well moderated and civil discussion groups.
Fly Safe!
How, Matt?
In order to aerotow safely you need:
- a pilot with solid Hang 2.0 level skills
- the abilities to:
-- stay on tow up through a minimum of one and a half Gs worth of tension
-- get off tow as quickly as your reactions permit with both hands on the basetube
- a glider hooked up in a manner such that it can be controlled over the range for which it was certified
The aerotow industry has conspired amongst its operations and with the manufacturers and national organizations to:
- replace legitimate education and training with disinformation, religion, and wishful thinking based survival strategies
- turn the glider pilot into a dope on a rope with zero ability to stay on or get off tow in emergencies that dictate that he have those abilities by making the equipment as dangerous as it possibly can
- encourage people to hook up with "pro tow" bridles that put the bar in stuffed position at normal tow speeds
- viciously attack anyone and everyone who makes any serious threats in the direction of reform
Lets see... a Wallaby/Quest thread starts up. a few opinions are shared... someone give a strong vote for one park... that person get taken to the shed on his point of view regarding instruction etc...
Who would have thought (0)
Dennis
Juan Saa - 2013/12/06 16:03:16 UTC
Boca Raton
Quest
This pics will give you an idea of the View at Quest from up there!
I continue to disagree on the two weak link idea but I can see I don't have the complete information to argue with those who like that setup. I for one consider it unsafe. I will check again with those who corrected me and to clarify the reasons why, in the meantime, I'm going out and fly!
michael170 - 2012/11/28 20:54:02 UTC
What did you find out from those who "corrected" you?
Still waiting for an answer on that one, motherfucker.
Matt Christensen - 2013/12/06 16:31:42 UTC
Dennis, take two minutes and reread the thread. My only objective here was to get a contributor to qualify their...
His.
...opinion. So the reader has some context as a basis for comparing the two flight parks. If Joe likes Wallaby, great, so do I. The reasons that he stated "fast and cheap" mean absolutely nothing to anyone, because Joe has no other experience to make a comparison with.
Having flown there isn't the only way to make a comparison. I've never been near and would never go near either one of them 'cause I never wanna be in a position in which my life is dependent on lying incompetent assholes.
The rest of the back and forth was regarding Joe's ignorant statements about aero towing, bad instructors and his struggles with foot launching; which only detracted from the thread.
Joe's comments about aerotowing, instructors, and foot launched slope flying versus dolly launched aerotowing are spot on - and he seems to have handled the former to date a lot better than folk like Dave Seib, Eric Thorstenson, Dan Veneman, Grant Bond - as well as a couple of products of your instructor at Manquin who weren't able to remember to check to see that they were connected to their gliders before they started running off the ramps.
By all means though, jump in and help Joe derail this thread even further. Let's talk some more about how it takes no skill to aero tow safely in all conditions...
He didn't say that. There's no kind of flying that you can do in ANYTHING that's safe in all conditions. What he said is that it's brain dead easy - and there are untold thousands of brain dead AT rated glider jocks running around alive and unscathed worshipping the ground Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney oozes over to prove it.
...and how you should evaluate your instruction based on how fast and cheap it was.
ALL of it TOTALLY SUCKS. So you might as well go for whatever's cheapest.
smokenjoe50 - 2013/12/06 16:57:43 UTC
Southern California
Hey Lostgriz fuck you.
Yeah, I can go with that.
You are just an arm chair pilot I actually fly daily. I fly in big boy air. Everything you discribe about aero towing being difficult is a lot harder when foot launching. When you get pulled by the tug you have instant airspeed all the pilot has to do is fly the glider. How hard is that? Im guessing you have never foot launched?
2013/12/06 17:46:27 UTC - Sink This! -- Brad Barkley
2013/12/06 18:57:40 UTC - Sink This! -- Paul Hurless
You're definitely getting pissed on by a couple of the right people.
Dave Hopkins - 2013/12/06 17:41:01 UTC
Come-on Joe don't make light of aero towing. It is flying a glider under power.
Until your 130 pound test braided Dacron Pilot In Command increases the safety of the towing operation and inconveniences you a bit anyway.
It has hurt and killed pilots every yr.
I can't think of any PILOTS ever so much as scratched as a consequence of aerotowing. Can you name one?
It demands respect and focus.
Bull fucking shit. It demands competence and decent equipment and drivers.
It is a learned skill.
When we first wavers did it we learned the skill during the first foot launched tow.
Small inattention can hurt of kill you.
Bullshit. When people get hurt or killed aerotowing it's always because of at least a couple of MASSIVE and KNOWN issues taking effect at the same time.
It can be done reasonable safe but don't take it lightly.
Who's taking it lightly? 'Cept for all the assholes who think they can buy everything the assholes who run this show are saying and selling - meaning just about everyone.
Many of the best have had bad incidents.
Name some. Here's idiot fucking dope on a rope Davis Straub:
coming tantalizingly close to breaking his fucking neck because he was using a known defective launch dolly with known inaccessible piece of shit main and backup releases with a survival strategy of waiting until he slams in and snaps his fishing line. According to Steve Kroop he's one of the best of the best because...
For a couple of years I have flown with a doubled weaklink because, flying with a rigid wing glider, I have found that there is little reason to expect trouble on tow, except from a weaklink break.
...he flies with a stronglink.
I have seen plenty of close calls and trips to the hospital at aero tow sites.
Stronglinkers, right? Did you go into the hospital and find Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney visiting them and telling them how he tried to warn them?
I am always glad to get back to foot launching after months of AT.
I'm really glad when you get back to foot launching too.
We can abort on most slope launches. if it goes bad in the first couple steps We can put on the brakes and get away with a dropped nose or small ground loop.
Also if we are not hooked in we should be aware that the glider has flown too high and we can let go of it before we get into the air or going to fast . I teach this on the training hill. we should let the glider fly off our shoulder and be very aware that the strap is tight . If the glider keeps going up let it go.
It's really good to stay current on aborting launches after three or four steps when you realize you're not hooked in.
All the flight parks in FL teach and tow well.
Kitty Hawk, not so much this season. A couple months before its start one of their top guys had a freak accident.
There are differences in the administration, the amenities, cost and general feel at the flight parks. These are the things that usually make pilots decide which park they will stay at. Plus it is good to visit all the parks . Quest and wallaby are only 20 miles apart in central FL.. Florida ridge is 100 mis south and can have more tropical( warmer) weather in the coldest part of the winter.
Go fuck yourself, Dave.
Davis Straub - 2013/12/06 18:12:39 UTC
smokenjoe50 - 2013/12/06 01:53:08 UTC
Wallaby Ranch hands down.
Hmmm. This from someone who apparently hasn't spent any time at one of the flight parks.
I'm very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.
I have spent many months at each of the flight parks over the last fifteen years.
Good. They deserve every second of your presence.
I'll bet that I have spent more time at both parks than anyone else.
Certainly Chris Muller, Tony Ameo, Shannon Moon, Zack Marzec.
I might have something to say about them that is based on actual deep experience.
And massive conflict of interest.
Both will provide you with lots of aerotowing opportunities.
Any SAFE aerotowing opportunities? Just kidding.
Wallaby is more expensive but offers more amenities (breakfast and more at additional costs). Wallaby is in fact food oriented with hang gliding coming in second.
How likely is the food to blow up in your face?
Dave Hopkins - 2013/12/06 19:57:26 UTC
Nice one davis
Glad to see that you're on such good terms with Davis, Dave. Maybe the similarities in names have something to do with it.
Dennis Cavagnaro - 2013/12/06 20:16:48 UTC
We should all be greatly appreciative to have such wonderful options to fly in Florida. I hate these threads because they get riddled with bias based on past personal experiences.
Example... "Wallaby is in fact food oriented with hang gliding coming in second."
That is a shot based on years of personal hostility and those who have been around know it.
Both parks are fine and offer excellent instruction. Wallaby is owned and operated and Quest is leased and operated. Wallaby is close Orlando so it can be a more convenient place to get off a plane and step into a hooch, change cloths and tow up. I don't know what the current tow fees are at either place.
Death if you get slammed by powerful lift on a pro toad bridle and Rooney Link below parachute altitude.
Mike Jefferson - 2013/11/28 01:55:17 UTC
Red
Foot launch is why I do it. What other aircraft can do this? Only the birds and Superman foot launch. Oh yea, Superman flies prone too.
Here's an idea, Mike... Find yourself some ten foot bump off the edge of a soccer field and knock yourself out repeatedly foot launching off of it all fucking day long. I one hundred percent guarantee you that you'll be glowing with the radiance of birdlike purity by early afternoon.
Steve Corbin - 2013/11/28 02:12:46 UTC
Yeah, for those of us that have foot-launched for 99.9% of our flights...
...and have IQs of 00.1...
...tow launching is the scary part.
Can you think of anything you could do to make it less scary? Like maybe get the heads of Trisa, Matt, Davis, Rooney, Paulen caliber scum on pikes and start getting safe equipment into the air and regulations and standards adhered to?
My comments regarding towing were tongue-in-cheek.
...motherfucker?
Kayakjack - 2013/11/28 03:10:52 UTC
Thank you all for the responses. Hope to meet you.
I hope for pretty much the opposite for me.
It is cool that in many ways this is like when I started whitewater kayaking. The rapids look terrifying. The boats -- you are affixed to an unstable boat that wants to turn over with you in it.
That can't happen in hang glider towing. You have a weak link that'll break before you can get into too much trouble.
It is amazing fun, but there is so much to learn. Gliding is amazing fun. I have my fears. I do not know what I am doing...
That's OK. The Industry itself doesn't have a fucking clue.
...but I want to learn.
That's what'll get you into trouble.
Tom Lyon - 2013/11/28 04:50:07 UTC
Michigan
Welcome! I just started flying at Lookout this year myself. I have five mountain launches. You picked a terrific school to learn.
I don't think you'll find foot launching to be intimidating once you start doing it. You begin on level ground and only slowly move up from there. The transition is quite gradual, and you'll have dozens of flights by the time you are cleared to fly from the mountain.
The first mountain launch is a bit scary (for me, anyway), but you'll be well-prepared for it.
If you're well prepared for a first mountain launch it won't be the LEAST bit scary. You'll be champing at the bit. But they don't prepare anyone well for ANYTHING.
The slope of the ramp is very similar to the slope of the big training hill, so you will have made many launches of that type already.
David W. Johnson - 2007/11/05 00:57:23 UTC
Huntsville, Alabama
My fourteen year old daughter's first mountain launch went wrong. I got to watch her fall forty feet into the trees.
As to the problem: she tried to take the launch back after starting, pushed out to a stall and parachuted down to the trees. Nobody knew she was that nervous.
You have a great attitude and the wisdom that (hopefully for most of us) comes with a bit of life experience. I'm 53, and I'm also very, very safety-oriented. I am confident that I can avoid injury if I approach hang gliding with this attitude and give it the great respect and attention that any kind of private aviation requires.
You'll likely be considering your first glider before too long and you can definitely make some decisions there that will add to your likelihood of enjoying many years of safe hang gliding. I ordered a Falcon 4 and added the big Lookout "training wheels" that we use on the hills, and I don't know that I'll ever take them off.
But you're only keeping them on to - hopefully - mitigate the consequences of blown flare timing. The more you deliberately roll your landings in the cheaper, safer, and more fun this sport will be for you.
There is even a more docile glider than the Falcon that Wills Wing just re-released called the Alpha. There are two of them on the training hills at Lookout, so you'll fly one for sure.
From the downtubes.
They use them every day on the little hill. It's more likely that you'll choose the Falcon when you buy a glider, but the Alpha is a choice that is available to you, and you'll get to fly both the Falcon and Alpha on the hills at Lookout.
Have fun!!!!
In one of those piece of crap training harnesses with some idiot yelling his best guess on when you should whipstall? How?
Harold Wickham - 2013/11/28 05:33:41 UTC
Las Vegas
I also started at LMFP back in Sep. 2002 and have been flying every opportunity I get since then. I signed up for the VIP package and was very fortunate with the weather and was able to complete H-2, areo tow, and mountain. Ratings in just 5 days. LMFP will always be a special place for me... Hope to return there some day.
Keep up the lessons and hang in there, if your ever in Vegas look me up at Desertskywalkers.com
Paul Walsh - 2013/11/28 11:53:39 UTC
Read everything you can find from Dennis Pagen.
Just read the odd or even pages. That way you won't find contradictions every other page.
Kayakjack - 2013/11/28 13:02:52 UTC
Jackie,
Thank you for the insight. You have been down the road that I am about to travel. Interesting about the "training wheels". We landed on wheels when I did the two aerotow flights last weekend. No problem. I have been a runner for about 35 years and my knees are not the best. I am in great physical shape. I run and pump iron. But the running has had its "impact" on my knees.
What is the downside of using "training wheels" vs. landing on your feet?
Assholes with x-rays like THIS:
will start threads about your deficiencies in the testicular department.
I have been reading the Hang Gliding manual - the part about flaring your landing. Looks like you don't flare a wheel landing. I imagine the wheels give aero drag and excess weight. Are those material issues?
How much difference are wheels gonna make weight wise on gliders that have hook-in weight ranges of a hundred pounds?
Kayakjack - 2013/11/28 13:04:30 UTC
I really appreciate all of your responses. Thank you very much.
Sebastian - 2013/11/28 13:34:04 UTC
You will need to learn how to land on your feet...
Why?
...and they will teach you.
And then you'll be good to go.
If you've got bad knees and don't want to take a chance on hurting them then land on your wheels. Any landing that you can get back up and go back and fly is a good one in my book!
Didn't you just say that he needed to learn how to land on his feet?
After your tandems and when they clear you for solo aerotow you will fly a Falcon with wheels just like the tandem gliders have. It also has a kickstand with wheel in the rear. My recommendation is to fly this until your approaches and speed and altitude control are perfect. This glider you roll in on its wheels. You do not land on your feet.
By taking the landing on your feet aspect of the flight out of the equation (which also can be the most stressful part of flight)...
...your entire hang gliding career...
...it allows you to really focus on your approaches, and ability to judge your speed and control by bringing the glider in like a plane and skimming the ground and then setting it down smoothly.
Then you can start getting on with the whipstall, whacking, breaking downtubes, arms, necks bullshit.
I did this for thirty plus flights.
You will also learn glide angles from different points of the field and where you end up.
Fuck them. Learn how to get your glider al close as safely possible to the top of your lowest downwind obstruction.
This will all benefit you greatly when landing on your feet.
Don't land on your feet unless you need to. And if you're coming down someplace where you need to land on your feet you've fucked up. And if you fuck up enough times you're gonna get an arm broken.
It will be second nature by then. I'd rather have the option to land on wheels than to not have wheels and need to land on them.
I'd rather TAKE the option to land on wheels to minimize the risk and stress and maximize the fun.
They have everything you need there to get you going and keep you going.
'Cept for aerotow releases designed for towing anything, competent instruction, ethics...
Good luck and enjoy your training!
Yeah Jack, good luck.
Red Howard - 2013/11/28 14:21:42 UTC
Jack,
Sounds like you will do well here.
It's not too late, Jack. You can still bail.
Wheels are a good way to get started...
And finish - for every flight of your career.
...as you have seen. You can do a lot of flying, before taking on the foot-launch option.
You never need to start.
Wallaby Ranch, Quest Air, and the Florida Ridge (all in Florida) are HG towing centers (no need to foot-launch).
Dennis Pagen has written lots of advanced HG books, but there is a good HG beginner's manual from him, listed in the HG WIKI (top tab, on any HG.ORG page).
Dennis Pagen writes crap. He's a liar and you can't trust him.
Pagen's advanced HG books would only slow you down, for now.
You wanna learn from Pagen's books read them carefully and make notes in pencil on everything that doesn't add up.
I'm guessing that you have Peter Cheney's HG book there, but both Cheney and Pagen have good information for you.
Go fuck yourself, Red. Both of those assholes publish crap that get people killed.
If you can't buy one, you may be able to get one from the public library...
Check out the fiction section.
...and if they do not have it, they may be able to make an inter-library loan for you.
I see you've gotten great advice (I especially thought that Seb's comments were spot-on) on foot vs. wheel landings. Here are a few more thoughts.
The only downside to keeping those big "training" wheels ($60 for the pair in the pro shop at the top of the mountain) on a glider are that they add drag. But that's not much of a concern (not one at all for me, really) for the type of flying you (and I) are doing. I'm glad to give up that half point of performance (or whatever it is) for the safety and peace of mind.
You'll find that a lot of injuries result from the base bar hitting the ground and digging in while the glider is still moving forward with speed. Wheels won't always prevent this type of accident (uneven terrain, very soft earth, etc.), but on a mowed runway in an LZ, they will almost always start rolling when they hit the ground.
Meaning... If you're one hundred percent confident in your ability to stop the glider on your feet one hundred percent of the time you can safely come into terrain that isn't wheel landable.
One thing I do with my students is... Over the years, I've learned the hard way. I've been on the cold hard x-ray table. I've seen a lot of my friends get hurt or die - and it's just a game. So you have to realize this.
I don't risk safety any more. I'd say... the absolute hardest I would push it is on a thousand to one chance of getting hurt - and that's pushing VERY hard. It's pushing it TOO hard. Because, I do this more than a thousand times a year. You're really pushing the envelope at a thousand to one chance of getting hurt. It should be more like one in a HUNDRED thousand - which is probably the same as driving your car.
Good freakin' luck. If you don't break an arm 999 times out of a thousand it's not worth it. And how many times do you hafta pull it off to make trashing a hundred dollar downtube and the hassle of replacing it worth it?
The wheels are very light, so not much of a weight penalty.
If you are landing on a nicely mowed runway with holes filled in, that's not all soggy and waterlogged, etc., it's safe to land on the wheels. But it's not safe to land out (somewhere other than your LZ) because you don't know what you might encounter. That's the biggest reason why I want to get good a foot landings - so I can safely land anywhere.
- Interesting how we're expected to be able to be capable of - and ARE capable of - finding and staying in invisible columns of rising air for hours on and but are at total losses when it comes to our ability to locate twenty yards worth of wheel landable turf from anywhere within the five or ten square miles we typically have at our disposal.
- Anybody who thinks he can safely land anywhere is a total moron. If it's not safely wheel landable it's not safe. And anybody too stupid and incompetent to be able to keep a twenty yard strip of wheel landable turf in range at all times has no fuckin' business getting out of range of the LZ.
You will have to demonstrate four consecutive foot landings to graduate from the small hill to the big hill, but that will be the last time that it will be mandatory for you to continue to progress.
Why do you need to demonstrate ANY foot landings to graduate to ANYTHING at Lookout. What part of the twenty-six hundred by thousand foot putting green they use for their mountain launch, aerotow, and trike training operations isn't wheel landable and how many people are missing it and having to land out in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place?
Foot landings, done properly, are elegant, smooth, and gentle. Beautiful, really.
So are balance beam exercises.
But the injury rates are astronomical and tiny percentage of folk who survive to the Olympic level are usually in a lot of debt to the skills of their surgeons.
But there is a fair bit of technique and timing to them.
And when you're just a wee bit off on technique and/or timing and/or when Mother Nature capitalizes on an opportunity you stand a real good chance of getting an arm broken.
I still don't have them down by any means...
Nobody does.
...and lots of really experienced pilots struggle with getting them right every time.
You can't be doing shit that requires a fair bit of technique and timing close to the ground and expect not to get fucked up in the long run. These CANNOT be done safely.
The problem (Seb explained this well, and it's important for you to keep in mind with your knees) is that a poorly executed foot landing can...
...will...
...be a relatively high impact event. Like, say, jumping off of the tailgate of a truck, which I don't do anymore just to be gentle with my joints. But if you're too timid (my problem), you're not saving enough energy to flare properly and land on your feet.
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
You just kind of tip forward and roll on the wheels (safe, but not a foot landing).
It's NOT SAFE in the LONG RUN.
Jen in the Pro Shop up top is an experienced pilot and she has big wheels on her Falcon. You could ask her opinion as well.
You don't need to. Just look at the big wheels she has on her Falcon.
For me, I'm not ever planning to take them off unless I get so good at foot landings that I am 100% certain of being able to pull them off properly.
Yeah, let us know when you get there. And give Ryan a call to tune him into whatever it was that he missed.
Here is the great Jim Rooney Landings thread for you to study. Awesome stuff!
Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.
His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.
Christopher LeFay - 2012/03/15 05:57:43 UTC
January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process - doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted - to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone.
And, too high a number of us experienced pilots could be making better launches than we do. Doing a lot of ground handling in lighter winds really helps.
Notice how you tend not to here a lot of discussion about dolly and platform launching?
Everything you discribe about aero towing being difficult is a lot harder when foot launching. When you get pulled by the tug you have instant airspeed. All the pilot has to do is fly the glider. How hard is that?
Getting comfortable just moving the glider around from place to place builds confidence when it comes time to run down hill with it. After a bit it becomes less of a struggle and more of a pleasurable experience. It is all about getting 'the feel for it' and that takes time. Toss in launching from slopes of various shapes and steepnesses plus winds of different speeds, character (such as gusty) and direction (not always straight in)... all that ground handling of the glider will pay off.
I love foot launching hang gliders. Never have towed and more than likely I never will. I just plain have too much fun foot launching and finding new places to do it.
Great. I have too much fun:
- always driving a short distance from home to the same place
- plopping my glider on a cart
- having my glider locked level and properly trimmed in pitch automatically
- having tons of airspeed in reserve
- getting dropped off in a thermal
- soaring up thousands of feet with other gliders, vultures, hawks, eagles
- landing next to my car
- not having to break down, shuttle, and set up again if I want or need another shot or to fly tomorrow
It is such a great feeling knowing I've parted the ground and taken flight solely by my own efforts/skills.
So you're hiking your glider from your home in Chattaroy to these various sites around Eastern Washington and Northern Idaho?
- What time in the morning do you typically head out?
- What's the latest you typically get back?
- Do you hike on the shoulders of the Interstates and major highways or does that taint the purity of the experience?
- How 'bout the hikes up the mountain? Do you bushwhack or cheat a little on the logging roads and deer paths?
And I'm assuming that you fabricate your own glider and harness designs entirely from natural materials you've foraged during your strolls through public lands in the Northwest.
Sebastian - 2013/11/29 14:13:40 UTC
Great thing about aero tow. You don't have to move it anywhere. Set up down in lz, Fly, land and leave set up. Bring it back to end of field and launch again. Repeat process all day. Break down at night.
Or tie it down if it's lookin' good for tomorrow.
You will get the rush of high performance driving while getting towed up which requires high focus and then relaxing flight and calmness of floating with the wind once you've pinned off from the tug.
Sorry. I'm too stressed out milking every foot I can get out of every thermal I can find. I don't start relaxing until there's no longer any hope of staying up and then I'm usually pretty busy with the landing.
It truly is the best of both worlds to me. I come from the motorsports side of things so I need the intense focus.
Enjoy every part of the process.
'Cept for the lousy shits who with the mandatory standard aerotow weak links, tow mast breakaways, and motivation to make good decisions in the interest of your safety.
It truly is remarkable.
Yeah, that's one thing you can safely say about this sport.
Kayakjack - 2013/11/29 14:34:41 UTC
Thanks Seb. Yeah, the logistics of aero-tow look easier. Something to think about.
Why don't you come over here? I'll give you tons of shit to think about on the aerotow scene.
Tom Lyon - 2013/11/29 17:57:18 UTC
This all rings UTTERLY true to me. I transitioned over to HG as a licensed sailplane pilot, and I can honestly say that no flying experience in sailplanes has ever been more rewarding than foot launching even from the small hill at Lookout. It's just so pure.
I probably will learn to tow eventually so that I can fly in fun comps and with more of my friends, but my goal is to transport my glider to foot launch sites all over the country. To me, that's what hang gliding is all about!
Yeah. Burning huge amounts of fossil fuel in hopes of finding soarable conditions with the wind within acceptable speed and direction ranges. It's so much like what the birds do.
And I love ground handling. Finding the best way to move the glider on the ground by taking advantage of the wind to help is so much fun. Done right (and without too much wind), it's effortless. The glider just flies along right above your shoulders. Too cool!
It's all very Zen-like for me.
Tom Lyon - 2013/11/29 18:06:15 UTC
Seb is right about the logistics for sure. You also don't need to wait for the ridge to be working to fly. The tug can deposit you right in a thermal. Since you got the VIP Package, you'll be fully qualified in both launch types...
Yes. FULLY.
...and I'm sure you'll be glad that you learned how to do both.
My desire to stick to foot launch (at least for now) definitely limits the amount of flying I can do.
I don't know why all the negs. Letting aside the language noman uses (which I'm getting used to )...
I'm used to all kinds of brain dead crap in this sport. That doesn't make me a fan.
...that site seems more than ok.
It's Ryan. Ryan's full o' shit.
On the other hand, almost anybody flying a hang glider is more experienced than me.
Experience has little to nothing to do with anything.
But I think I could teach Paraglider Collapse to fly a paraglider
Brian Horgan - 2013/12/06 17:39:57 UTC
hes not thumbs downing me,hes thumbs downing ryan voight,i dont take it personal.
I'm good with him thumbs downing either one or both of you.
I do like ryans idea about starting a site for advise only.
And, of course, RYAN'S "advise" only.
After seeing some people i know getting bad advise of hg.org,i felt there was a need for this.
Why? Were you incapable of speaking up and identifying it as bad advice and explaining why it's bad advice? I'm all for bad advice - given the chronic state of affairs in this sport. Helps with the evolutionary processes. The assholes who swallow it and defer to its perpetrators deserve everything that happens to them.
I hope SG puts a forum up that only lets known pilots with real experience tell it like it is.
Me too. I love it whenever Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney and Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden post stuff and assholes listen to them.
Ryan may be a cocky mofo but i have never once seen bad advise come from him and he truly wants this sport to advance,i can and do support anybody who has this agenda.
Good. And I really hope you get heavily into aerotowing sometime in the near future.
adyr - 2013/12/06 18:05:47 UTC
Oradea, Romania
I don't care about 'political' fights and personal animosities.
Too bad. Political fights and personal animosities determine how this sport is conducted.
That site seems good to me. I definitively can learn from such advices.
Super. You do that - and please keep your camera running.
Dave Hopkins - 2013/12/06 21:03:06 UTC
I would not want to be the one to decide who can and can not give advice. That feels like censorship.
I don't recall you calling Jack out for banning Yours Truly.
We all love and respect this sport.
Of course we do. It's not like it's infested with a lot of parasites who use and manipulate it to climb social ladders, corner markets, control turf, finance their ultralight habits, protect themselves from social, civil, and criminal consequences.
I think all our views are valid.
Yeah. Two plus two is whatever anyone feels like saying it is.
There will be a certain amount of bad advice for pilots at different skill levels.
Why? Is this happening in conventional aviation?
Every pilot is different...
The glider doesn't give flying fucks about personality types, opinions, or education levels. All it cares about is what it's feeling through the hang strap and wires.
...and we all are still learning and sharing our experience and trying to make it fit into the laws of aerodynamics and meteorology.
What do we still need to be learning and what can't we explain fairly easily and simply in the way of necessary and useful concepts?
Those with more experience may have clearer concepts of how to proceeded, But as far as I know none of us knows it all.
A few of us know all we need to in order to conduct ourselves competently and safely through long careers in this sport. Mike Barber is gonna kick my ass flying XC 'cause he's got a ton of experience and will be way better tuned in to what's going on and likely to go on and how to best exploit it. But:
- I can understand what he's saying and recognize that he's solid on the underlying physics and not just spouting off opinion and I can learn and advance.
- My chances of getting killed due to an unhooked launch are a lot less than his are because he relies on procedures and mindsets that are wide open to distractions and disruptions while I rely on an assumption that nothing I've done more than two seconds prior to commitment is of any value in assuring me that I'm hooked in.
The sport is still evolving.
Bullshit. The last time there was a significant advancement in the sport was 1979/09/26 when Brian Pattenden explained that tow force should be routed through the pilot instead of the bottom of the control frame. Everything else has been a tweak and there are tons of shit that have been sliding backwards for decades.
Teaching and learning are developing arts.
Bullshit.
AndRand - 2013/12/06 22:13:47 UTC
Poland
IMHO the main authority in flying is - the almighty physics.
Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
How does that stack up against Bill Moyes, Bobby Baily, Davis, Rooney, Trisa, the USHGA Towing Committee?
No matter who tells anything - if it is not according to MY understanding of physics, I would say: "maaan, that's crap!" or otherwise "that's perfectly right".
Furthermore, it is the only thing I can rely on for my decisions in flight, because there is no other authority.
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
And I am aware that I can be wrong.
If you are it's a very simple matter to check the math and make the fix.
And I am aware that there are subtle conditions that can create non-intuitive outcomes.
Yeah. But we know what they all are and any solid Hang 2.5 or 3.0 should know them all forwards and backwards. We are NOT crashing gliders because of subtle conditions that create non-intuitive outcomes. We're crashing gliders because we're:
- trying to whipstall all of our landings with our hands on the downtubes
- using fishing line which always breaks at the worst possible time - when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation - to increase the safety of the towing operation
- thanking bad pin men for making good decisions in the interest of our safety
- positioning release levers to guarantee that in lockout emergencies we'll be trying to fly the glider with one hand or slamming in a second or two later with both hands on the basetube still on tow
- thinking that when we're really experienced and know how to react quickly we can safely tow without a keel attachment and the basetube trimmed back to our navels
- so confident in the infallibility of our memories that we feel safe routinely making the most critical checks of our flying days and sometimes lives five or ten minutes before the time when they become critical issues
a) only the pilot can let the angle of attack increase when you lose tension. Thats 100% on the pilot. You are simply wrong and misleading again.
b) "And if your angle of attack was way too high to begin with..." Which should never be the case or youre making a pilot error. Again, you are misleading people.
This is the problem I have with you. You attempt to fallaciously attribute pilot errors to issues of mechanical towing devices or other things.
Sorry... but if you suddenly lose power, your nose just doesnt pop
Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/07/04 13:48:47 UTC
Really sick of this bombastic, grandstanding, arguing style I come to my own forum each day and get pissed off. Time to end this.
Right.
Dave Hopkins - 2013/12/06 22:34:46 UTC
It's all force vectoring run through our finger tips to our senses. Imagine the first birds using their elongated fingers to feel the air and trying to turn it into a medium of travel.
The first birds didn't do that. They did short glide and flutter stuff.
How did evolution create flying?
Gradually.
How did creatures caught up in trial and survival last long enough to turn fingers and arms into feathers and wings.
Gradually.
There are some mighty powerful physicist out there in the universe.
Yeah, Intelligent Design. Only rational explanation.
We were a bit slow but I think we are getting it now.
Wilbur and Orville got it eleven decades ago. Do try to understand and conform to what they figured out.
adyr - 2013/12/07 09:52:17 UTC
You don't know much about evolution, genetics, or physics, do you?
The answer to that one is pretty fuckin' obvious, isn't it?
It was already worked out by the time I arrived.
The reason it sticks?
Trail and error.
Exactly the way the aerotow industry arrived at a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot on a one or two point bridle as the ideal aerotow weak link for all solo gliders.
Humans get it quicker by reasoning but we don't have millions years of experience.
- Yeah, see above.
- We don't need millions of years of experience. We mostly just need grade or junior high school level language, math, science and a few hours off the hill and/or runway.
Incidentally, isn't it a little peculiar that Bob Sponge started a sock account here while still posting as Oakdude? I wonder why he did that - or why it's allowed?
I'm probably heading to Phoenix for a few weeks and wondering what anyone can tell me about Sonora Wings. I know the instructor there does a lot of scooter tow...
Yeah. Here's one of his graduates putting into practice everything he was taught:
on the last flight of his short hang gliding career.
...and he told me via e-mail that training hills are not common there but they have some lower ridges. I really want to footlaunch vs tow as it's been a couple of months since my last footlaunch - It's been raining up here with low clouds right now and probably won't be training weather until March or so. But really, I want to know if the training there is good and what experiences people have had there and flying/training around Phoenix in general.
It depends a lot on whether or not they're connected to their gliders when they start their launch runs.
I find it hard to believe that at this date in time people don't know how to type Arizona and hang Gliding in a search engine
And I find it hard to believe that at this date in time that people don't know how to put periods at ends of sentences and read and answer people's questions.
2013/12/29 21:33:09 UTC - Sink This! -- Brad Barkley
Soarcerer - 2013/12/24 09:38:39 UTC
Yeah, I actually did that. I reached out to Sonoma (Sonora) Wings. Perhaps maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I'm asking for opinions on the training there and footlaunching in general in the area.
I do appreciate your response.
Don't be too appreciative of anything from this dickhead.
Sam Schippers - 2013/12/24 13:43:01 UTC
Tonopah
Mark is great.
Yeah, name an instructor who isn't.
Most of the training is towing but I foot launched all but three tows for all my training. Great place.
If you did scooter tow training it's highly likely that ALL your training flights were foot launched.
Tom Emery - 2013/12/24 15:49:48 UTC
San Diego
Bought a hang glider from Mark at Sonora Wings. He was selling it for someone else. The glider had a frayed wire at the kingpost pulley. Had I not spotted this upon inspection he would have sold me the glider with an obvious problem.
Did he sell you any aerotow release assemblies?
He agreed to order a new wire (at no cost). Six weeks went by. I called him several times. He finally got the wire. Guess what? He ordered the wrong wire.
I'd had enough. I had Rob (High Adventure) order the right wire. It was ordered and installed in under a week. Then I had an issue with reimbursement from Mark. Altogether not a very professional relationship. If he flies with as little attention as he showed me, watch out.
2013/12/26 12:12:05 UTC - Sink This! -- Mike Bilyk
Soarcerer - 2013/12/26 09:26:41 UTC
Thanks for your responses, everyone. I also received a few PMs, thanks for those as well.
My goal is train down somewhere down in warmer climes and then maybe fly with the club in Vegas during the winter as my parents snowbird there. I'll let you know how it turns out.
Keep the camera running.
Mike Bilyk - 2013/12/26 12:11:41 UTC
Crestline
Tom, you're a crazy old fart who bought a used shitty glider expecting it to be perfect. Mark went out of his way to make it right but that wasn't good enough for you. Now you talk shit about him? Fuck you!
Please don't listen to this delusional old fool.
Yeah Sorcerer, if anybody says anything less than glowing about anybody in hang gliding instruction establishment then don't listen to him.
Back on topic...
Mark@ sonorawings.com is the go to guy in AZ. One of the nicest guys I've ever met...
As are ALL hang gliding instructors and tug drivers.
...and does training aerotow and foot launch via scooter tow.
Tom Emery - 2013/12/26 12:48:55 UTC
Hey Mike,
They have an expression in law. It's called "hearsay" evidence. It is designed to keep people from testifying to something they heard from someone else. Since you weren't there, you are not qualified to respond. The Bible has a similar law: Do not bear false witness.
Which is pretty ironic coming from a book that's almost entirely false witness.
I was merely describing my (firsthand) experience with this guy. It's all true. As for the name calling... grow up. The kindergarten playground was for little boys to call each other names. I suggest you start acting like a man.
Yeah, it would hafta be an act.
Steve Corbin - 2013/12/26 15:12:59 UTC
Crestline
Hey Tom, Welcome to the Crazy Old Pharts club!
Proud member here, I participate and sometimes lead the way!
Mike's not actually a bad guy, he's just young and full of piss and vinegar...
And shit. And I wonder who his instructor was/is.
...as the old pharts said about me when I was young.
Being a member of the Old Pharts Flying Club is a wonderful thing, it designates us as being lucky...
Yeah, Dave Hopkins would fall safely into that category.
...which IMO beats the heck out of being skillful.
And I'm guessing you'd say the same thing about being competent.
Being lucky means not having to work hard.
Being lucky means fucking up and getting away with it. If that's something that appeals to you then you should definitely be looking into another hobby.
If Mike is lucky enough he will someday be eligible for membership.
Yeah, that's definitely what it's gonna take for that asshole.
In the meantime I have a good used Breathalyzer For Keyboards he might be interested in buying for a phenomenal fee. It has certainly reduced my making an a$$ out of myself on the internet.
How sure of that are you?
Mark Knight - 2013/12/26 18:06:32 UTC
Tom, I just wrote and deleted my reply to you. I'm not going to comment on someone like you. You are not worth it.
Here's one... Do you feel the slightest bit of responsibility for what happened to Bryan?
2013/12/28 19:11:34 UTC - 3 thumbs up - gluesniffer
JJ Colorado - 2013/12/26 19:25:46 UTC
Colorado
I did some scooter and aerotowing with Mark two years ago and he and the local crew were great and very conscientious.
And if anybody had a different take and posted it on your stinking club's forum he'd have been banned and you'd have deleted what he had to say.
As for advice regarding keeping current and refining skills, you should realize that scooter towing is the fastest way to get many takeoffs and landings in.
If you launch and land on wheels and use a safe weak link and release system.
Scooter towing gets you in the air at a decent height quickly. You can practice flying and even thermal up if conditions are good. And you can land right back where you take off. You are lucky to get two or three flights in at most mountain sites due to the retrieve turn around time.
While launching with a scooter tow is not quite the same as a mountain foot launch, while on tow your control inputs are effectively amplified. So you end up learning good wing attitude control which will make foot launching easier. If you are still working on your H2, scooter towing in AZ in winter can help you progress quickly.
But, of course, the experience will be tainted and impure because you won't be starting your flight exactly the way a bird does.
And aerotowing can get you stinkin' high even in calm air, which is beautiful just before sunset in the Sonoran Desert.
As long as you consider popping off the Dragonfly at any given moment - with or without the towline - a mere inconvenience.
Fletcher - 2013/12/26 20:55:41 UTC
I've done business with Sonora Wings for many years and have Alwayse been treated with professional courtesy. Mark is a respectable business person and a competent instructor.Sorry anyone feels otherwise, misunderstandings sometimes happen.
2013/12/26 21:06:58 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Tim Dyer
That didn't sound like a MISUNDERSTANDING to me, Fletcher. 'Specially not after Mark didn't dispute or respond to what Tom reported. And the the care you took in your response doesn't do shit to sway me to Mark's corner.
The guy asked for any info. Sometimes the experience is positive. Sometimes it's not. I could have remained silent, but that would have been dishonest to his request.
I wouldn't worry about that too much, Tom. Nobody gets too bent out of shape by questions being ignored on hang gliding forums.
Without information, how can anyone make an informed decision?
I wouldn't worry about that too much, Tom. Nobody gets too bent out of shape by the inability to make informed decisions in hang gliding. After all, everything's just a matter of opinion anyway.
Happy to hear you don't want to spend any more time on this.
You should be absolutely overjoyed. Mark's got long lists of things he doesn't wanna spend any more time on.
Tom Galvin - 2013/12/27 03:17:16 UTC
I have never had the opportunity to meet or learn from Mr Knight...
Really hard to believe. You seem to have so much in common.
...though many people I respect...
Anybody you respect I'm probably gonna despise.
...have had many good things to say about him.
And people who don't have many good things to say about him tend to be banned from The Jack Show, injured out of the sport, dead.
...and no dealer can make all the people happy all of the time.
Let's say a dealer sells a used glider with a frayed wire, agrees to order a replacement, fails to deliver it for a month and a half, finally delivers the wrong wire, fails to apologize to the customer, and denigrates him on a public forum. Name some people what would make happy.
YMMV
And it might not.
P.S. Mark was the first person to get to Kunio's body down the slope at Mingus on 2008/08/30 after the latter ran off the ramp one last time without doing a hook-in check to give himself a false sense of security - motherfucker.
I also started at LMFP back in Sep. 2002 and have been flying every opportunity I get since then. I signed up for the VIP package and was very fortunate with the weather and was able to complete H-2, areo tow, and mountain. Ratings in just 5 days. LMFP will always be a special place for me... Hope to return there some day. 
)...
